Anosmy to muskdeer, experiments with Basenoters
Anosmy to muskdeer, research and experiments
- Thread starter Profumo
- Start date Jun 20, 2011
- https://basenotes.com/threads/anosmy-to-muskdeer-research.504579/
Profumo
Seven of our friends have received a free small vial of real muskdeer tincture. A rare and forbidden product, muskdeer is a specie on the brink of extinction. See my report on Kashmiri Muskdeer.
It is believed that one male in 3 has specific anosmia to muskdeer. My experience showed that females are much more sensitive than men to this aroma.
The object of our research is to understand how widespread is anosmy to muskdeer.
We shall use a psychological protocol. If you are going to ask your friends “Do you smell it?” (which is what we want to know), you will straight away instill in them the suspicion that maybe it is not smellable.
They will be psychologically conditioned.
If you tell them “This is musk”, they will expect a certain kind of smell and of intensity that may confuse their analysis of what they smell (how many people do not smell real ambergris because they expect the extra-loud smell of Indian Amber coumarins).
You should say as little as possible to your subjects so as not to condition them, but you should tell them enough to interest them.
For instance, “I am doing some research with perfumes, this is a traditional ingredient of perfumery could you describe it and tell me if you already know it”
You should have your subjects try the perfume on their hand or on their arm, and they should blow on it before smelling in order to evaporate the alcohol of the tincture.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
mumsy
Experiment 1 – I went locally to see a friend wearing the deer on the left and another perfume on the right, a very light one. She was not there, so I sat with her husband and daughter to have a pleasant cup of tea. We were talking about many things and I broached the subject incredibly gently by saying I was testing some new perfumes. Before I even finished the sentence, or even got anyone to smell my wrists the husband commented that he had already smelled my perfume wafting in with me. He had ceased to notice it whilst I was sitting still, but he noticed it whever I moved. When I proffered wrists, he confirmed the musk was what he was getting wafts of. He merely said it was very pleasant as a description. I was actually quite surprised by its obvious spreading power as it seemed a small smell to me when I had put it on. I had only put two wand strokes on one wrist.
Experiment 2 – Own resident victim. Husband. I just proffered two wrists and said nothing and he liked the deer better. He was surprised at what it was and said he hadn’t expected it to be so soft and sweet and very strong. He said afterwards that it had stayed in his nose after some time.
Early result is 2 x mature males = very sensitive to it.
Me, actually less sensitive to it than I thought, as I found it very gentle on myself. I need to make someone else wear it to test this.
(Puppy not interested in this one.)
All life as I ever knew it, is still on hold whilst I care for my dad now. One day I’ll be back.
Profumo
Dear Mumsy, your first experience is very interesting indeed. It shows plainly that sensitivity to Muskdeer can be very high in some persons, their perception threshold is very very good. This is a new data for me (and I believe in this field of study). I am usually used to be confronted to the opposite phenomenon which is specific anosmy.
This is a bland (perfume-therapy) tincture. The fact that it lasts so long on you as to be percieved by others after hours may indicate a special characteristic of your skin.
This protocol of testing came by chance but it shows that this is a very good psychological approach. It gave us more info than we were searching for.
However it would be more complete if the subjects could smell it on themselves as well.
Compliments.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
Jim Lewis
The good news is that my package arrived today — it was quite exciting to receive it: thank you, again and always.
The bad news, for me at least, is that I seem to be completely anosmic to the muskdeer. I literally cannot smell a thing – not sniffing the container, nor on my skin. I will try again later, when my nose has had some time to recover, and I will try with other people. But my fear is that I’m simply one of the unlucky ones. This is disappointing, of course, but a result is a result.
More to come as our research continues.
J
masstika
Salaam Profumo,
Beautiful Package, precious contents arrived yesterday.Thank you. I rubbed a little bit of the deer Musk tincture yesterday on my right hand wrist and after the alcohol has evaporated I could smell clear but light scent as sweat would smell from a shirt in the under-arm area…very fleeting nothing much animalic about it.. I had smelled a 4% Tincture of Siberian Deer musk from a Legal and trusted source and it is more animalic, more primal.
Question to Profumo: What did you mean by “This is a bland (perfume-therapy) tincture.”? is there a “spicy extraction?
I am going to start the experiment on my willing coworkers tomorrow (ISA).
Slaam,
Masstika
Profumo
Dear Masstika, this is the way I smell it myself. More concentrate is more animalic and more bland is more “human” and spiritual. Bland means a lot of alcohol to tincture a small quantity. This is not 4% this is 5 per thousand (0,5%)
There is no legal muskdeer. Russia has nos signed the convention of the CITES, and you can purchase it only in Russia (and satellites) in contravention to international accords.
Perfumetherapy is a pleasure use for which raw materials, essential oils and absolutes are diluted into alcohol in a concentration sufficient to be used as a perfume.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
mumsy
I have been finding I can only detect a tiny smell with it. I was beginning to think I was the anosmic one. It had an almost chocolately nuance on my skin yesterday. (I wondered if that was because I had eaten some very black chocolate a couple of hours before wearing it.) However, the same daughter of the gentleman I first visited, came to see me, and she immediately said she could smell the same smell as before. She was quite far away when she said it, and had no knowledge that I was wearing it again. I wondered if the extra sensitive nose was something that ran in families. Does anosmia get passed down through genetics in families? It would make sense that it could be.
Profumo
Dear Mumsy, until you put the muskdeer on their arm you cannot be sure that this is indeed what they are smelling. This is the only way to verify a phenomenon unknown until now “specific hyperosmy to muskdeer”.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
masstika
Mar 25, 2011
I have asked today (2) male coworkers ages 37 and 42 and (3) female coworkers ages 17, 30 and 38 to put on a drop of the musk deer on their skin without telling them what it is. I just asked them if they: 1. were able to smell anything or not and if they can identify the smell. All of them could smell something to varying degrees. The 17 and 42 year old were extra sensitive to it and claimed that they still could smell it on their skin even 10 min. later!!!(the guy had to wash his arm because he found the smell to intrusive). The others found the smell fleeting and ethereal. Non were able to identify what the smell is and when given the choice whether the smell was animalic, floral or resins all picked floral as the base of the scent. Non of the people knew what is deer Musk and I had to show them pictures of it on the internet afterward.
I’ll continue testing on more male friends.
Profumo
Jun 26, 2006
Etheral is the right word really. As if this smell was not of this world but of the other world.
You inquired with the wrong protocol but it worked anyway. You were supposed NOT to ask if they were able to smell it, in order not to influence them psychologically.
We are getting some really interesting data.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
Puente
The kit has arrived.
First Results – (Conducted indoors)
First test subject: Myself (Male, Single, 28)
I am not anosmic to muskdeer at this concentration and can clearly smell it from the wand after letting it dry for a few seconds. At first, I smelled ammonia but then it quickly turned into a very ethereal, sweet smell that was enticing. I instantly recognized the scent from a few vintage samples of Guerlain perfumes I had smelled. Once swiped on my wrist, the story changes somewhat. At first, I couldn’t smell anything, but then I got very faint whiffs of it.
Second test subject: Roommate (Female, Single, 23)
I followed the protocol established so she did not know what she would be smelling or even if she would be able to smell it or not. I applied it on her wrist and she could not smell anything. After a few seconds, she sniffed again and said, Floral? but was very unsure if she’d actually smelled anything at all.
(A note about test subject two – Roommate – she is a female that suffers from Polycyctic Ovarian Syndrome. From what she’s told me, she produces more testosterone compared to other women. I note this fact as I am sure this may alter her perception of pheromones.)
(A second note – My roommate had just finished cooking so the house smelled of bacon and butter. I’ve decided to re-conduct the experiment outdoors.)
Second Results – (Conducted outdoors)
First test subject – Myself
The scent was much more pronounced outside and I can clearly smell it on my wrist after another swipe. Same scent as the first time, but more intense.
Second test subject – Roommate
Interesting results. She could now smell it, though it was faint. At first she said it was sour, then sniffed it again and said, “Pickles?”. After a few more seconds she mentioned that she smelled a faint floral smell again but was much clearer now.
After I told her it was true musk from the deer she kind of freaked out and said, “You put what on me?!” Oh well, on to the next subjects. I will report back soon.
Eliam Puente, Novice Perfumer
masstika
My apologies…I had misread/misunderstood the Protocol (part of my dyslexia)! I went back and read it again and I will repeat the test with different co-workers. I still have some left and this time I’ll follow the Protocol exactly .
Profumo
Your mistake was profitable, it showed that the test worked even with a different protocol, thus redimensioning its importance.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
Puente
Third test subject: Friend (Female, Partnered, 23)
She was able to smell the muskdeer right away though she did mention it was light and fleeting. Her description was honeydew flower and vanilla. After a few seconds it was difficult for her to smell it any longer. So far these results have shown me that there is definitely a sweet, floral scent in muskdeer.
Fourth test subject: Friend (Male, Partnered, 24)
At the time of testing the subject was suffering from mild seasonal allergies but was still able to smell the muskdeer. His only description of the scent was that it was warm and that it was faint.
Fifth test subject: Friend (Female, Partnered with test subject four, 21)
To her the smell was also faint and lasted only a few seconds but her first impression was that the scent was green and it reminded her of spring time. After a few seconds, the scent reminded her of honeysuckle.
Eliam Puente, Novice Perfumer
abysynth
my kit has arrived! I haven’t done anything with it yet except to try the muskdeer on myself, and unfortunately I couldn’t smell it much. I could smell what seemed a very distant rich but really faint smell from it for about five minutes, and then nothing. alas! I did enjoy what I did smell though. more research involving other shall be forthcoming however, I’ll be testing it on my female co worker in the next day or two.
Jim Lewis
Mar 9, 2011
Puente, thank you. For reasons which are entirely unclear to me, I can’t smell the stuff if I sniff at the vial, nor can I smell it on my skin — but I can smell it on the plastic wand that extends from the vial stopper. What I get is something quite sweet, but in an animalic sort of way — the closest thing I can compare it to is puppy-breath (for those of you who don’t have dogs, this is a not a metaphor or euphemism: very young puppies have a distinct, very sweet breath), mixed with a slightly mossy smell. Very pleasant, with a slightly gamey feel to it.
Tomorrow I’ll be trying it with other people.
J
Jim Lewis
Mar 9, 2011
Mixed, and somewhat unexpected results: thus far, two women have been essentially unable to smell it (though one wasn’t sure). One man, who happened to stop by the table, smelled it so strongly that he reared back. He said it smelled “like an animal”, but couldn’t really fine-tune his description from there. Is it possible that, at this concentration at least, not smelling it is the norm, and smelling it the anomoly?
Profumo
You are quite right Jim, this is a dilution that is supposed to be sprayed. A full spray is about one drop and you only have a vial from which you put very little with the inner stick.
It should be distinctly smelled for a minute or two by normal-osmic persons and not smelled at all by anosmics to muskdeer. The interesting point is the hyperosmy to Muskdeer that appears to exist among people, a fact that I have not seen recorded before. Let us make more experiments.
WHOM OF YOU MAKES MOST AND BEST EXPERIMENTS WILL WIN A BOTTLE OF CONCENTRATE TINCTURE.
It is a 1.2 gram bottle, eleven times more concentrated than the one you have.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
mumsy
I had a family garden birthday party yesterday so have been testing all guests liberally, notepad in hand and was about to post these results anyway without having seen your last post. (I do think you have very willing volunteers here anyway and your treat is already a very lovely gift that is ample).
One test prior to the party :-
a) – unsuspecting financial visitor – Upon application, he said it was very strong for a moment or two, then he had trouble smelling it again as well. I told him to huff and try again. He said it reminded him of a perfume he knew, but couldn’t think which one. When I revealed what it was, he was very surprised. I had to explain why it was possibly so familiar.
At the party:-
b) – 80 yrs – male, married (family 1)- said he could smell a trace, but it was too weak to tell what it smelled of. He then couldn’t smell anything.
c) – 72 yrs – female, married (family 1)- couldn’t smell anything at all, but then again she is anosmic to most smells, so I’m not sure she should count.
d) – 48 yrs – male, married (family 2) – he said it smelled strongly of weeds and lasted with an aftersmell of dank weeds. I didn’t believe his description, so checked him out about 15 minutes later and he indeed did smell oddly of old plant water. That was the oddest result.
e) – 48 yrs – female, married (family 2) and she couldn’t smell much at all. She said she could just about small an initially acidic smell, but this had gone by the second sniff and then she couldn’t smell anything. I suspect she was just smelling the alcohol.
f) – 15 yrs – teenager (family 2) – couldn’t smell anything at all
g) – 15 yrs – teenage son – found it really strong, floral and musty. Asked me if it was an animal smell. Said it lasted. He has a brilliant perfumers nose.
h) – 11yrs – male (family 2) – couldn’t really smell anything but wasn’t sure.
i) – 11 yrs – son – thought it smelled like weak urine a bit. Possibly the alcohol.
j) – 10 yrs – female (family 2) – thought it smelled like nailbiting solution but couldn’t smell anything afterwards. I think smelling the alcohol only.
k) – 9 years – daughter – thought it smelled like wasp spray but then nothing.
l) – 50 yrs female (family 3) – couldn’t smell anything
m) – 15 yrs female (family 3) – smelled a weak smell, possibly a flower but didn’t really know.
n) – 82 yrs female (family 4) – wasn’t sure she could smell anything
o) – 80 yrs male (family 5) – also wasn’t sure that there was anything detectable.
Result conclusions = I seem to have 3 smelling it strongly, 2 smelling it weakly, 4 possibly smelling just the alcohol, 6 not smelling anything.
I have a tiny bit left still. I shall have to see whom I can pounce on this week. What complete fun this is.
PS. All conducted outdoors.
Profumo
Well done Mumsy.There is a simple way to avoid the smell of alcohol, and it is to blow over the place here you dabbed the perfume until the sense of coolness (from the alcohol evaporating) disappears. 2 or 3 seconds are enough.
However the facts from your investigation evening is clear. Most people do not smell in this quantity, while a few ones smell it very strongly.
Let us go ahead with accumulating information until your vial is finished.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
abysynth
I’m about to leave for a large family gathering, so I will have plenty victims to do my experimenting on! results shall be forthcoming tomorrow.
Scentolicious
I’ve had my goodies for about a week now, and have seen some interesting responses from people. Here is what I have gotten as feedback:
I am an acupuncturist, so anything I put on myself is very likely to get into the field of multiple other people in a single day, without ever having to point out that I am ever wearing anything.
The first day I wore it, 6 of 7 (5 Women, 2 Men) people inquired what it was that I was wearing. The two men, interestingly, told me it smelled like a barnyard of animals. The women couldn’t place what it was that they were smelling–only that they loved the smell. One of the ladies jokingly made a move to chew on my arm! haha
My brother has been in town, so I have had him test drive it. My friends asked what he was wearing, to which he replied, “I have no idea.” Everyone said they liked the scent.
My sister has also been in town (it’s been my Birthday weekend–great time to be trying this stuff with all these people around!), and I had her test drive some. She liked the smell. Said it was soft and a bit sweet, and seemed to “float around her in a shell.”
I had another friend of mine, a female acupuncturist, give the stuff a run. She said that all of her clients that day inquired about what she was wearing. I never told her what it was. She told me that she also had a barnyard comment, several “sweet” comments, and that she, herself, could not stop smelling her arms through the day.
Personally–I love the smell! I can’t stop smelling myself when I wear it. I can’t tell if other people are responding to the scent–or if they are responding to me wearing it, as the scent does something to me that makes me feel bigger and more filled out, if that makes sense. Either way–it changes something about the wearer, and people respond to that.
Thumbs up for deer musk!
abysynth
last night’s results are as follows (I shall model it somewhat like mumsy did):
1. uncle, married, 65: says it smells sweet, no other description but no trouble smelling it
2. uncle, married, 62: fresh clean smell, no trouble smelling it
3. grandfather, married, 89: he could smell it enough to determine I was wearing it, but nothing more. potentially attributable to his age?
4. aunt, single, 54: powdery, “clean baby butt”. no trouble smelling it
5. grandmother, married 90: smelled nothing (again potentially attributable to age?)
6. aunt, married, 60: a good smell, like baby powder, no trouble smelling it
7. female cousin, married, 34: florally & powdery, “old ladyish”, no trouble smelling it
8. aunt, married, 62: powdery like talc, pleasant; no trouble smelling it
9. male cousin, married 34: “baby powdery, shopping mall, old lady”, no trouble smelling it
10. female cousin, single, 5: whispered to me “it smells like a trumpet!” no trouble smelling it
11. male cousin, single, 29: potpourri, floral, some spice to it, no trouble smelling it
12. female cousin, engaged, 31: smells nothing
13. male cousin, engaged, 32: likes it, smells like “good spiced rum”, no trouble smelling it
14. aunt, married, 60ish: likes it, light & fresh, no trouble smelling it
15. uncle, married, 62: “like a scent from the 60s”, no trouble smelling it
16. male cousin, married, 31: “mild, talc, smooth? unobtrusive”, no trouble smelling it but is fairly faint
17. mother, married, 63: florally in a non-light sort of way, no trouble smelling it
18. step-father, married 57: smelled mostly nothing, but could smell it just barely enough to tell that something was there
19. grandmother, married, 79: likes it but can’t describe it, no trouble smelling it
20. grandmother, widow, 82: flowery, subtle; not too much trouble smelling it
I was surprised at how few people had trouble smelling it, it makes me wonder if there is a genetic component to, since a great many of these people are related to each other by blood (although they are all step-relatives to me and so no blood relations of mine except my mother). of the four who couldn’t really smell it: two females and two males. two elderly male & female (89 & 90), perhaps attributable to age, one middle-aged male (57) and a young (31) female non-blood-related cousin. so the anosmia really didn’t seem specific to any age group or gender. it also surprised me how widely varied people’s descriptions were (“good spiced rum”, “clean baby butt”, “scent from the 60s”, etc), but every single one of them liked it (of those who could smell it of course).
hope this helps
abysynth
oh yes, also: this was all conducted using my own wrist, so everybody had the exact same scenario to experience.
masstika
I am back with more test results and this time I followed the protocol verbatim. Below are the results:
– Female, age 45, no problem smelling it. Likened the smell to a dead animal in the forest! yet also sweet.
– Female, age 43, smelled like baby powder for couple of seconds then could not smell anything at all.
– Female, 47, First smelled light floral with hints of animalic scent. Did not like the smell.
– Female, 35, no problem smelling it. Indicated that it smells woody and leathery.
-Male, 45, no problem smelling it. However, he said it first smelled floral but then he said it smelled yeasty or like a sweaty socks.
They all applied a drop or two to their own wrists and waited 2 to 3 seconds before smelling. One common reaction in all of them when they smelled it first is that it smelled floral. This smell was fleeting and was not there in few seconds. Could this be the smell of Alcohol they are smelling even though I know that this alcohol suppose to be odor free?
Profumo
Abysynth, you should use their wrist, because on yours they will smell the odor of your body but on their wrist they will not smell their own odour.
AbdesSalaam Attar
Composer Perfumer
bshell
Even though I have a record that Dominique sent my package on or around June 13, I still have not received it. This is partly due to a postal strike in Canada. But that strike has been over for one week. Each day I eagerly await the post to see if the package is going to arrive that day, but alas, nothing. So I am reading this thread with envy. I hope I can join the rest of you one day soon to see for myself what the stuff smells like and to conduct some experiments on Canadian noses.
mumsy
My sons guitar teacher willingly proffered his wrist yesterday upon request. He sniffed and sniffed but could smell nothing but a trace of something alcoholic. Male. Approx 50’s. Marital status unknown.
Puente
I finally got a new victim to the experiment. After a very long, tough week at work I can get back to experimenting with individuals.
Male, 28, Partnered – Completely anosmic to muskdeer. Could not smell it at all.
I’ll try to get more people as soon as possible.
Eliam Puente, Novice Perfumer
Puente
Another test:
Male, 23, Single:
Also completely anosmic to muskdeer. This is also a guy that has a very good sense of smell but was unable to detect the muskdeer at all.
Eliam Puente, Novice Perfumer
abysynth
very punny, puente, spelling “sense” like “scents”
mumsy
Another male guest today. 56ish. married. Completely unable to smell the musk at first, but did say after a while and lots of huffing on it, that he thought he might be able to smell something, but the smell was so small, that he couldn’t say what it was.
Tried the Ambergris on the other hand and that got a startled reaction of yuck, eugh…. what’s that, deer poo? After being told it was just a reassuring whale sick, he thought it got milder after time, but not improved much in smell. Will post this on the correct thread too.
mumsy
Just also tried sons teenage friend, a 15 year old male. Smelled the deer and was overpowered by it. Said it smelled of rapeseed strongly. Insisted on wiping it off because he found it so strong. What a difference in reactions! It will be very interesting to see whether these pheromones only work on younger people or not.
bshell
Finally, I have few results to report. I tested on six people.
1. 70 year old male for musk deer: “Don’t know what this is, but it’s familiar.”
2. 70 year old male for musk deer #2: anosmic
3. 40 year old male for musk deer: “Smells like rotting flowers.”
4. 43 year old male for musk deer: “Powdery, fine smell.”
5. 60 year old male for musk deer: “Very faint powdery smell.”
6. 50 year old woman for musk deer: anosmic
Puente
Thanks for catching the typo Abysynth. I was drinking when I wrote that post.
Another test: Male, 39, Single:
Could not smell it on his own hand but was able to smell it on the plastic wand. He mentioned it smelled like animal dung and vanilla.
Eliam Puente, Novice Perfumer
bshell
A few more data points for musk deer anosmia experiment:
1. 39 year old female, can smell musk deer: “Synthetic, rubbery, bark smell.”
2. Male, 61, “Slight hint of flowers, lily of the valley.”
3. Male, 44, anosmic to musk deer
mumsy
1) 54 year old female – married (for musk deer) = animal bottom changing to cedar wood, newly planed pine
2) same female tested for ambergris on correct thread
3) 80 year old male, was married (for musk deer) = couldn’t tell what the smell was as it was too subtle, doesn’t last.
4) same male tested on ambergris thread
ambergris thread = http://www.basenotes.net/group.php?discussionid=1133&do=discuss
mumsy
Another unwary guest today…
Female 40+ married = smelled the musk deer as fairly weak but a permeating smell, unpleasant at first but improving, like a member of the mint plant family, like a dank plant smell.
firehorse
Interesting thread to read
Seems like for the people who only smell it a bit, they get a powdery, and sweet smell. And for those who smell it a lot, get barnyard, animal bottom, rotting plants, etc.
